Pathfinder Fighter vs. Ice Devil?

There’s been some smack talk about the Pathfinder preview of Valeros the 14th level fighter.   It spins off into the usual “fighters are worthless in D&D 3.x” hate speech.  In particular, there’s comparisons with an ice devil. “The fighter is totally outclassed by the CR 13 ice devil!” they cry.  “Casters are the only worthwhile classes!”

Well, I can’t speak for Valeros’ build, but our Pathfinder Beta based Curse of the Crimson Throne game is coincidentally at level 14.  We have a fighter, a ranger, a cleric (me), a new bard, and an occasional sorcerer.  And I’m afraid we don’t find the fighter “weak.”  Let’s look at our level 14 fighter and how he’d fare.

Malcolm, our fighter, carries a modest +1 heavy flail of transmuting (which, after hitting a creature, gains the properties needed to bypass its DR).  Sure, he needs buffing – but with his usual loadout (he always drinks a potion of Enlarge Person, which he has scads of, when in a dungeon, and then either Righteous Wrath of the Faithful from me or Inspire Courage and Haste from the bard, either gives +3/+3 and an extra attack) – he can kill the devil in three rounds on average.

First round, he closes and gets one shot at +28 for 2d8+17 damage (not even counting it as a charge).  With Improved Critical (17-20) and Devastating Blow that’s 36 damage (minus 10 for the devil’s DR).  He does have to contend with the devil’s fear aura, and it’s true that even with Bravery he has a good chance of failing that save (45% for Malcolm) but that’s what friendly casters are for – resurgence or anti-fear stuff, of which we have a variety.  And for the flying problem – he has potions and other items that give short flying, or again one of us can help out there.

Then in round 2 with a full attack (and extra one for haste), the transmuted weapon bypassing DR, and Backswing –  107 points of damage on average in that round.  Devil’s down to 14 hp.  Even if it gets a slow hit in and Malcolm somehow fails a Fort save (unlikely!), it’s nap time on round 3 from a single attack.  Malcolm has AC 28 and 197 hit points; there’s nothing the devil can do to pour enough damage into him to kill him inside 8 rounds.  Its cone of cold only does 25 hp damage to him on average, and its full attack is only a little better.  Even without caster buffs, Malcolm can do it in four rounds (though the fear and fly problems are more of a problem without caster support, although there’s a variety of cheap Magic Item Compendium items that counteract those problems).

A three round kill on the devil is as good as a caster would do on average.  Between the SR 25 and +15 saves (+19 with unholy aura up), even the spiffiest save-or-dies from a level 14 caster only have about a 20-25% chance per round of working.  That’s three to four round survivability once you do the math.  And the fighter can keep it up for a long time.  The Pathfinder rules tweaks have helped him out a lot – the weapon training, armor training, bravery, and additional feats like Backswing and Devastating Blow boost Malcolm’s worth in this fight was above a level 14 3.5e core fighter.

Besides, adventuring isn’t about one on one.  It’s about a party, over 5 or so encounters in a day.  The fighter needs healing, buffing, and anti-mind-affecting support from someone.  But that’s worth it – it’s like someone with a heavy machine gun needs someone to feed ammo.  The two people together are doing more than they could with a rifle apiece.  Getting and keeping Malcolm on a target when it means 100+ damage easily in a round is so worth it.  As a cleric, I can at best toss 25% success chance save or dies (of which I have a very limited number), or cast a variety of 14d6ey anti-evil-outsider stuff, which is only 49 damage even before SR and save which makes them average a net 15-20 damage.    I’m definitely better off optimizing our fighter.

These caster queens also complain that fighters are “boring” and support roles are “boring” (apparently only save-or-dies are “exciting”).   To them I say – you’re doing it wrong!

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48 responses to “Pathfinder Fighter vs. Ice Devil?

  1. Is this just the season for skubstorms or something? First there’s the Old School/New School tantrum that started over the weekend, and now this…

  2. Yeesh, some people’s kids.

    Thanks for the write-up—it’s nice to see someone trying to make it work rather than finding reasons why it shouldn’t. Sounds very much to me that the fighter has his strengths and weaknesses, just like every class.

    The day every class is perfectly balanced with each other will be a pretty boring day for D&D…

  3. “The day every class is perfectly balanced with each other will be a pretty boring day for D&D…”

    4th Edition is already out! :)

  4. I can speak for the build of the Pathfinder fighter and let me tell you, it is awful. I took the stats provided, rearranged them and had the fighter focus on fighting with a two handed weapon. I then took the eclectic collection of magic items the fighter had (+4 light fortification fire resistant breastplate?) and sold them at half price, then equipped him with a more effective set of gear. I then reselected his feats and used the mountain of feats I saved by staying away from two-weapon feats to get some handy feats like Iron Will. It is not much of a build and is probably woefully under-equipped but it has a Will save of +10 (+14 vs fear) an AC of 25 (despite having a dex of 10 vs. the Paizo build dex of 20) and would be able to take the Ice Devil down in 3 rounds of head to head combat. This is without any kind of magical enhancement from allies. With the aid of a good caster the fighter could have it down even faster.

  5. I think Valeros is built fine. He is not perfectly optimized or ‘supar’, but that is alright. It allows for players to have their own characters that are better.

    As for your level 14 Fighter with 197 hp, holy crap man, did he just roll awesome or does he have a ginormous Con? I mean average rolls for 14 levels of Fighter is 81, so that’s 116 hp from Con/other stuff. Or over a +8 con o.O . I guess it’s feasible with a +6 con, toughness, and favored class bonus, but holy damn!

    Actually, I guess that’s not too improbable at level 14, probably easy enough to get a Belt of Con +2. :)

  6. For a 14th level fighter Valeros is definitely subpar. He has wasted a mountain of feats on making fighting with two weapons as effective as fighting with a single two-handed weapon. Despite some good work by Pathfinder on two-weapon fighting feats they are still only really good for rangers and rogues. At 14th level a fighter with a 14 base strength and an 18 base dexterity really should be an archer. The only advantage he gets from his highest stat is AC and access to the feats that make fighting with two weapons about as good as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

    His equipment is pretty bad too. If he was in a campaign where the GM did not allow the sale and purchase of magic items I could see him picking up that collection of stuff and holding onto it but otherwise it really should have all been sold off. The weapons he owns are also a prime example of why two weapon fighting needs some kind of extra payoff (i.e. rogue sneak attack) to make it worthwhile. His +3 Keen Longsword and +2 frost shortsword are as expensive as a single +5 weapon (for example a +1 holy shocking greatsword of wounding or a +1 keen falchion of speed). His armor would cost him 43,350 gold. For that price he could get himself a +2 medium fortification suit of adamantine full plate. He is also going to have a really tough time whenever he goes up against anything with damage reduction as he spreads his attacks out over twice as many attacks with nothing (like sneak attack) to help him push through his enemy’s defenses.

    I don’t want to turn this into a big back and forth about Valeros though. I am just saying that as far as ability to dish out (or take) damage goes he is subpar compared to most other fighters. This does not mean he is not a good character. As far as I am concerned the RP is what makes a memorable character. I am also not saying he is a worthless character. He could probably get along just fine as the member of a party. But he is definitely subpar. Not 10-strength-weapon-finesse-dagger-weilding-fighter subpar but still less dangerous than your average fighter. The only reason I am pointing this out is to lend my agreement to the fact that Valeros is not a good measuring stick for determining the effectiveness of the average PC fighter in combat.

  7. @Blake – yeah, Malcolm has Toughness and a Belt +4 on top of an already-high CON.

    @Truwar – I agree that Valeros is “fine.” Uber optimization isn’t the be all end all. But it’s mainly the uber optimizers who are crying about how much the Pathfinder/3.5e fighter “sucks” in general, so I wanted to show that a slightly more optimized one is hell on wheels and comparable to caster power at this level (we allow splatbooks in our campaign, but disallow heavy cheese. And actually I don’t think Malcolm has anything other than magic items from outside PF core.)

  8. You’re missing the point, unsurprisingly. All the crunch work is nice, but it doesn’t address any of the actual criticisms leveled at that build. Yes, Valeros is terrible. He’s a really poor example of a fighter. But that’s not the real issue. It’s that what we know of fighters in Pathfinder is that none of the problems we would have liked to see addressed were actually addressed. Fighters still are not mechanically interesting. They still are completely outclassed by casters, including a huge reliance on other party members that casters do not have. They still have nothing in their repertoire that makes me – or any of the other guys over on the RPG.net boards – jump up in my seat and say “Hey, that’s mechanically cool!” Compare to the sorcerer preview where it was made clear that casters are receiving even more boosts in power.

    But sure, call your opponents “caster queens” and tell us we’re doing it wrong. Next time, read the criticisms before you decide you’re interested in proving someone wrong.

  9. So… what’s your fighter’s Fort save, exactly?

    You’re ignoring the ice devil’s AoOs.
    You’re also assuming that–for SOME REASON–the ice devil is going to, you know, stand there and trade full attacks. Why the hell would it ever do that? Is it stupid?

    • Oh, and the Will save – +5 base, +3 resist gear, +4 bravery (assuming you’re asking re: the fear aura) =+12. If the bard has inspired courage it’s +15.

      Edit – whoops, sorry, see you said Fort. Uh, like +16, but not sure if that’s taking his belt of health into account.

  10. @itarakoturo – Well, we find it “cool,” and we’re actually playing the game. And there are other guys on the RPG.net boards who did like the new fighter, but basically you, LogicNinja, and a couple others do nothing but post 20 times an hour about how 3.5e sucks, fighters suck, Pathfinder sucks, Paizo sucks, Paizo forums suck… I know you think you’re brilliant and misunderstood, but basically you’re just a whiner. I’m happy to buy into Pathfinder just to be assures I won’t run into you maladjusted pedants in the player base.

    • Down to personal attacks, mxyzplk? Itara barely ever even POSTS on RPGnet. LN mostly posts about 4E, not 3.5.

      You’re taking a few critical posts–RIGHTFULLY critical; Valeros is AWFULLY built–and pretending that, boo-hoo, poor you, you’re so oppressed, having to read opinions that disagree with you! Wait, who was the whiner, again?

      Turning to pathfinder to avoid maladjusted whiners is a losing proposition, since the fanbasy is largely maladjusted whiners who are still in a huff about 4E.

      • Oh spare me, y’all can’t resist spreading your hate to every corner of the internetz here where anyone disagrees with you.

        I am comfortable with my opinions that Pathfinder is fun, fighters are fun, and fighters are not terminally underpowered. You can enjoy all the board games you like, doesn’t bother me.

      • OH NO! People are challenging your opinion on YOUR BLOG! Clearly they’re haters who will stop at NOTHING to spread their filthy lies!
        Sounding awfully WAAAAAAAAAH there, man.
        (Meanwhile, making a blog post about how “ha, ha, those people on the internet are so wrong, and here’s a strawman as to why” is… what?)

        You don’t SOUND comfortable with your opinion, because you have to keep defending it (and poorly!), complaining that people are disagreeing with you, and insulting the preferences of everyone who does disagree with you! I really like how you managed to work in a did at the assumed preferences at everyone disagreeing with you. Real classy.

  11. Oh, and, @Blake: Valeros is not “fine”. He’s not even “subpar”.

    He’s TERRIBLE. Seriously awful. A party would be better off with a Warrior 14 using a two-hander and picking decent feats.

    • I would disagree. We ran through CotCT using the Beta, and our Fighter in it (that dual-wielded) excelled at killing shit and taking names. They were one of the only PCs to not die during Scarwall, and I don’t fudge the rolls. The benefit of having double weapons really shows up when you throw on Holy Weapon effects from Oils or Bane effects (Undead Bane on both weapons, gah!).

      The fighter did make use of Melee Weapon Supremacy from the PHB2 (for an additional +2 to hit and damage) but otherwise used almost entirely core rules.

      They were built very close to Valeros. And did great. So excuse me if I think Valeros’s build is alright.

  12. @Max – the fighter’s enlarged, what AoOs? (Of course Malcolm has a maxed Acrobatics, too.)

    And it can run, but then it’s the one taking the AoOs. Charge and one attack and then one AoO as it runs away is still 70 points of damage/round on average. It could port but then can’t act. In enclosed dungeon terrain that’s auto-lose; of course it could be in specially favorable terrain… Usually that’s considered an up to the CR though.

  13. “The fighter’s enlarged”? Okay, so he’s losing a standard action. And then another one to drink a Fly potion. So the fighter’s wasted two rounds *just to get to the point where he can handle this thing*.

    What do you think the ice devil is doing in the meantime? What’s the party doing in the meantime?

    The ice devil can teleport… out of range and behind cover. It can raise its aura (except that it should already ahve it up), throw walls of ice out from behind cover, abuse Persistent Image (horrific in combination with Wall of Ice), *summon 2d4 bone devils who also have Wall of Ice at will* (but which a level 14 fighter should be able to handle… if not for their invisibility), and so on.

    You’re not thinking about this. You don’t actually care about the mechanics, here. You just want to be right, and to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being “whiners” and “pedants”.

  14. @Max – you are just looking for any opportunity to bitch without bothering to think about it yourself. Malcolm gets himself enlarged regularly before busting through doors; even a potion lasts a minute and if (God forbid) our sorcerer enlarges him it lasts for quite a while and multiple fights in a dungeon.

    I think any player worth their salt has many counter-tactics to combat all this. Malcolm’s magic helmet lets him see invis/illusions… Dispelling cords and thunderbolt vests are other cheapie magic items that are quick fighter-accessible solutions to these problems. And any solo character will have the same problem, which is why we have adventuring parties… Some of us counter the magic stuff, others do the killing.

  15. You’re telling me your fighter regularly drinks potions *before busting down doors*?

    And… when there’s nothing n the other side…?

    What is this helmet that lets him see through illusions? AFAIK true sight items are rare and really expensive. Is that a new Pathfinder thing? That’d be a good change (in some ways; it doesn’t fix the “christmas tree effect” or extreme item reliance of PCs).

    Any solo character will have the same problem, but some far more than others–and we’re not talking about solo characters, we’re talking about contributing to the party.

    You’re suggesting that the fighter is constantly enlarged because he drinks a potion before every door. I’d say you’re down to the bottom of the barrel, arguments-wise.
    (Why would an ice devil even be behind a door?)

  16. @Max – though I’m sure being able to call me homophobic is a convenient way to marginalize me without bothering with the truth of my assertions, “caster queens” in my original post is used in analogy to “size queens,” which is someone of either gender/persuasion who is turned on by penis size. Obviously y’all fetishistically worship casters, therefore “caster queens.”

    • Man, who the hell is calling you homophobic? I haven’t done anything of the sort.

      And on the contrary, most of us enjoy melee characters quite a bit. It’s why we’re fans of, say, Tome of Battle.

      Look, could you PLEASE cut this bullshit where you sneer at everyone disagrees with you and how they’re biased assholes who “fetishistically worship casters” and do nothing but sneer about how bad fighters are all day? I know that’s not true. YOU know that’s not true. And you’re making yourself look really, really bad by doing it.

      • Several posters on the RPG.net thread have already, as you well know and have clearly alluded to in your previous post up above. And I’m sure you’ve come here out of concern for my image and good name, but y’all are feeling free to be unmitigated assholes over there, so you’ll pardon me if I don’t take your opinions on the subject real serious-like.

      • I’m not one of the people who called you homophobic, so why pretend I am?

        People didn’t start being assholes to you until YOU started posting things like “WAAAAAAAH” and “you’re all assmasters”. You might want to keep that in mind.

        You’re pretending you’re some kind of put-upon martyr *and* that you’re valiantly bringing the light of reason to us caster-worshipping savages. Could you at least pick one delusion and stick to it?

  17. @Max – all I can say is currently in Curse of the Crimson Throne, we are rampaging through a castle filled with devils, and he is managing to be enlarged in most fights without wasting combat time on it. There are indeed doors. (If there’s nothing behind one, we quickly bust down the next one… Standard pre-buff issue.

    I don’t think the helmet is PFRPG stock, it’s some special Red Mantis assassin guild helmet in CoCT he got off one of our enemies.

    • That doesn’t match my experience with devils, and it certainly doesn’t use the devils’ full potential. Sounds like they’re being played like any other “stand and trade full attacks” brute, in which case of course the fighter’s going to do better.

  18. I like this. Wanting to boost fighters, saying that casters are too good at doing fighter things and generally wanting the game to work better towards that cole means “fetishistically worshipping casters”.

    • Ah yes. That’s all anyone is saying. How could I misconstrue them? Sure, it appears to the untutored eye that 60-page thread is chock full of hate against 3.x, players of 3.x, Paizo, Pathfinder, and pretty much everything related, but I’m sure it’s just we all want the fighter to be a little better.

      • I don’t think it appears that way to any eye except yours, and that’s only because people refuse to agree with you.

        People are upset with Paizo *because they improved the Sorcerer while keeping the Figter crappy*, and because the iconic Fighter is simply AWFUL.
        That’s not because they like SORCERERS.
        It’s because they like FIGHTERS, and feel that Paizo is doing them a disservice.

  19. Basically yes.

    I mean, I’m sure you could point out some hate, but most of it will be yours. You refer to everyone who disagrees with you as “assmasters”, call us “caster queens”, and of course anyone who dares make any kind of argument that isn’t slavish 3.5 or pathfinder love is a “pedant” or “whiner”.

    All your words.

  20. I’m also a fan of how you make the leap from us criticizing the PFRPG to “You guys hate Paizo!”

    I’m a huge Paizo fan. I maintain (to my knowledge) the biggest project for conversion of Pathfinder APs to 4th Edition out there. I’m very active on the Paizo boards and have personally offered my praise of their adventures to the designers. Not only do these things mean that I’m pretty demonstrably NOT a Paizo hater, but I also like to think that I have some familiarity with their products and the system they produce those products for.

    • Plenty of Paizo hate in that thread. Good for you it’s not from you, but this isn’t the “rebut you specifically” blog.

      • Yet you called me out for it. The Pathfinder fanbase has a pretty poor reputation online, given their conduct on their own boards, their hostility on other boards, etc. Don’t add to that negative reputation by flinging meaningless insults like “maladjusted pedants” at those who disagree with you, especially after they’ve gone through the effort of supporting their claims. You want to look like you’ve gone through that same effort, but so far it’s been nothing but wailing on strawmen.

      • I like how you manage to squirm away from your ridiculous statements by saying “oh, no, I wasn’t talking about YOU guys, I was talking about miscellaneous people in that thread!”
        That’s funny. Sure seems like you were talking to us, since we’re the ones you were “discussing” stuff with.

  21. @Ita – is the ice devil a “strawman?” It’s not one of my selection, in fact is was selected in the OP as the cherry-picked proof of how the fighter sucks, so that’s what I used. About a hundred posters were happy to guffaw “heh heh yeah the ice devil heh heh” so I reckon it’s good enough to make the counterpoint.

    @Max – You’re posting anonymously here; I don’t see a “Max” over there after a quick review so who knows who you are? So I guess I might be talking about you. You two have clearly come over here enraged by that thread to defend its general themes, so I’ll hold you responsible for the whole thing in your self-assigned role as ambassador of the pedant fetish squad.

    That’s not fair but tough; *I’m* the modclique hereabouts. I make no claims to fairness.

    Anyway, what you basically can’t rebut is that a group that’s decently optimized but not “Pun-Pun” type cheeseweasels is playing a game using these rules and finding our fighter to be an equal participant. Theories are like STDs, everyone’s got a couple. But we’re playing a real game, not net-theory, at level 14, mainly against devils at the moment, and all this overblown crying about how fighters are totally worthless and Pathfinder is no improvement over 3.5e and all that is just plain wrong. I’m sure all the arguments look convincing in people’s minds, but from a playtest (and by playtest I mean “year long campaign”) it’s fun and fine.

    PF isn’t perfect, but it does incrementally improve on 3.5e, and doesn’t go the “full retard” direction of 4e. That makes it the best version of D&D to date.

    And with that, I’m going to need to lock comments, because I don’t want to have to deal with this during the workday. I’ll unlock tonight.

  22. Except the fight isn’t an equal participant. His saves including will are crap. This matters as a large part of 3.5 (and PF) in the high end levels resolves are save or die.

    Saves replace AC and HP as the defense to have in the system. It doesn’t matter if Valeros has a bunch of HP and can dish out damage if he’s being ended up feared for large chunks of combat. Even if he’s cured or given saves he still runs a 75% chance of being out of being feared by the ice devil. Mean you burn out of resources or let the fighter do nothing.

    Sure, you’ll run across a few AC and HP fights in the higher end of 3.5. But more than half of the high end monsters have save or mechanics, being at the low end of them is pretty much asking the player to do a bunch of nothing during combat.

    PF may improve on other elements of 3.5 but it didn’t for the fighter. And that’s why people are calling Paizo out for it.

    • All of the classes have a bad save. It’s part of the package. Wizard Fort save is +4 at level 14, and that’s a save or die opportunity for them. Rogue Fort and Will saves are just as bad. There’s nothing fighter specific about having a bad saving throw. Every single class has one or more. At most you can say the Druid and Cleric get off easier since there are fewer save-or-die/lose/suck things that spur Reflex saves.

      Is that a potentially negative way higher level 3.5e play works? Yes. Does it have anything at all to do with the fighter specifically? No. Is it changed from the beta? No. Is it anything but consistent with the message of 3.5e compatibility in Pathfinder? No.

      “Calling out” Paizo on this is like “calling out” a White Wolf game for using dice pools. It’s just the way it works.

  23. Well, lets take a look at the sorceress preview and see what her worst saving throw is. Well, to be expected it’s Fort but it’s at +6. For a character that’s 4 levels below our fighter her lowest save is still higher higher by +3. Her middle one is 2 below (reflex) the fighter middle saving throw, but her high one is equal to the fighters. And she is 4 levels behind the fighter too!

    Meaning at 14 she will be able to surpass the fighter in saves quite easily. Not to mention she has ways to get out of or avoid potential bad save or effects. The fighter has to sit there and take them.

    Sure all classes are weak in the save or system, but the melee lags so far behind it’s not even funny. The fact that PF hasn’t addressed this by upping the save values is sad and the fact they didn’t take a look at the system is even sadder.

  24. It is not a matter of inherent class weakness that gives Valeros such a terrible will save, it is a matter of character design. The guy has a wisdom of 8 for heck’s sake and no items that improve his will saves. For about the same price as that lame fire resistance on his breastplate (medium armor on a high level fighter, really?) and type V necklace of fireballs combo he could just about afford a cloak of resistance +5. Which would more than double Valeros’ will saves and still be a nice boon for a fighter who took a reasonable wisdom score (I would take 14, or at least 12) and invested one of his many feats in iron will.

    Also, you cannot measure the effectiveness of a fighter by how he would do by himself. A fighter/caster combination can be incredibly dangerous and would have much more ability to KEEP fighting than a caster/caster combination. Yes a caster has save or die spells but what happens when the opponent saves? Until the caster gets their hands on teleport at 9th level they are pretty much toast if the opponent saves and the opponent usually has at least a 25% chance of doing so. Heck, if they get tagged with a dimensional anchor, teleport is not even an option.

    I am sure you could come up with a caster build (or spell selection) that would overcome any contingency I put forward, but you could do the same with a fighter. I also do not understand the idea that a fighter is boring to play, especially from people who enjoy tabletop gaming I am assuming this to be true of you because you are championing 4e and before you get all huffy, “I” like the tactical aspect of tabletop gaming as well.

    I do have to take issue with you calling foul on Mxyzplk for making “personal attacks”. Things did not turn nasty until this charming statement: “You’re missing the point, unsurprisingly.” Of course this “Why the hell would it ever do that? Is it stupid?” was also really conducive to pleasant discourse as well. That is like cheap-shoting someone then throwing up your hands in mock shock when they take a swing at you.

    • Appreciate the defense but let’s all try to step back from the infighting… There’s a lot of snark on both sides over at RPG.net that overflowed back to here.

      I totally agree on the gear thoughts you bring up; everyone at that level should have at least +3 resist gear. It’s cheap and your buddy with the Craft feat can crank it out.

      Yes, part of 3.5e is that saves become more
      important than AC for defense at higher levels, but
      a) goes for all classes as they all have weak saves
      b) there are ways of addressing it with feats and gear, and
      c) applies to the monsters too!

  25. Could I point out something that i have never seen anyone point out…ever. its about cmb/cmd.

    some of the raw numbers for how things happen in combat with pathfinder are slightly different including different size bonus calculations. This makes the fighter having so many damned feats actually useful. I remember when the only good fighter was the machine gun tripper. now he can use bullrush, disarm, even grapple effectively and is usually pretty damned good at defending against those same type of attacks.

    i designed a 4th level fighter with a CMD of 30 and a CMB of +12. he does what the fighter was supposed to do, fight…very, very well.

    he attains bonuses on things he is supposed to be good at. dealing damage (weapon training) and moving around a fight for more advantageous positioning (armor training). he gets bravery which is nice, but i think he could have done better with something like a built in combat focus to take care of all will saves instead of just fear related ones.

    dont you dare try and compare a caster to melee class, even the fighter because the caster is gonna win. period. have a first level wizard with a 20 INT cast sleep on any of the melee classes and see who makes the save.

  26. also mxyzplk mad a damned good point. seeing as how saves are effectively your defense at the higher levels consider the fact that fighters dont have any abilities that requires saves. they just capitalize on the dwindling ac of opponents and hit em hard. real hard. accurately too.
    with only dr to save the opponents hide a fighters raw damage before dice is enough to get past those numbers

  27. I agree. People always dog the fighter, I do prefer casters but fighter is without a doubt the best class in D&D or Pathfinder. It can be played one million different ways. Also in my opinion the Fighter was a little under geared and still managed his job well. The MAce only being a +1.

    I find Valerous to be a pretty cool fighter. Not how I would have made him but I would play him. Anyway, it’s the RP that really makes a character awesome.

  28. Max, itarakoturo, you are a couple of douche bags and honestly the RPG.net board is full of self-righteous, egotistical tools that are so consumed by their own image of their self worth that it is pathetic.

    Grow up both of you, just like the rest of the RPG.net board. You guys over there really do think you are king of the geeks when you are really just whiny little kids in your parents basements. Maybe if you moved out and got a job and heaven forbid a WOMEN you could have some actual selfworth instead of this imagined idea of you being superior “on da interwebzorz!” go spew you filth, bile and garbage somewhere else.

  29. Fighters rock. I love what I can do with them. Casters are cool, too. My favorite character is a Magus, but…Fighters rock. Hard. I compared my super-optimized Magus to a good Fighter one day…and got a shock…the Fighter could out-damage my Magus when the ACs got high. My Magus still rocks.

    I don’t know any of you guys from Adam…but if you don’t find Fighters interesting, play a caster. Fighters love caster back-up. Casters love their meat shields, and Fighters do it incredibly well…but hey, that’s not doing hardcore number-crunching…that’s just playing Pathfinder.

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